Post by sarraceniahunter on Aug 24, 2018 22:44:20 GMT -5
I grow the following: •Big Mouth •DC XL •SD Kronos •B52 •Low Giant
Honestly B-52 was a Abit of a stinker for me, even in Cali. I'll probably try again next year hopefully from a speciman from Matt & Leah.
My favorite Cultivar this Year is Definitely Sd Kronos. It definitely*Blew* my mind away this season. What I've seen in DCXL and B-52 and even big mouth and Low Giant is that they do grow big traps but usually in Spring and Late Summer to Early fall. But SD Kronos has made huge traps so consistently for me. Stephen has even stated that it tends to have a neat Growth habit with consistent trap Sizes. Mine so far Has made traps from 1In to 1.5In this whole grow season! When I get the chance to snap a few pics I will, Something I've noticed is that SD Kronos doesn't Color up as nicely as Big mouth etc. But we are talking about size not color ;D . I love Giant Flytraps don't get me wrong but for me it takes a lot more characteristics in a VFT to get me interested. ALIEN gets pretty big and the way it looks is just amazing to me. Oh...ok I'll stop rambling now lol.
For us, B52s are doing really well. Like all Dionaea, they need more shade when it gets hot, over 85 degrees. When it got in the 90s and they were in full sun, they started suffering, so we moved them to a part-sun area and they're happier. Got ours from Jeff Matteson, in RI. He grows some fantastic specimens up there. Because it's cooler, he keeps them in full sun. In nature the soil is cooler than air temperature, partly due to shade by other plants and partly due to subterranean water flow.
I currently grow B-52, Megatraps, DCXL, Low Giant, and Maroon Monster for "giants." All side by side. The most recent one I've acquired was B-52 and that was about a year ago as a freebie from a BCP order. The others have all been acquired from FTS, and grown by me for at least two years, here in northeast Ohio. They were all starter sized when acquired. I'm only really looking at Megatraps and B-52 since they are the most similar as far as growth habit, trap size, and coloration.
Now for the coloring aspect, this year has been kind of crappy due to some trees on top of a hill that blocks all of my morning sun until about 10-11. Both plants produce close to the same amount of coloring in the same color spectrum pinkish/red. TIE.
The growth habit on both is medium height. Neither one stays on the ground, like say Low Giant, and neither one could really be considered an upright grower like DCXL. TIE.
The current trap size, which they're going into fall growth with the summer traps just starting the die off period. I measured multiple traps on each plant, and on average the Megatraps is 1/8" bigger. Megatraps WIN.
Now the comparison that I hold nearest and dearest, vigorousness. Yeah, I know the Megatraps is more established in my collection, wrong. I lost almost my whole pot to rot this winter, while the B-52 had encountered no setbacks. There was 4 2 leaf plants that were possibly viable that I potted up and hoped for the best. There was a lot of hope and very little confidence anything would survive it. The only thing I need to say here is the proof is in the pudding, or this case the pictures provided. Megatraps WIN.
Now with all this said, I have provided multiple growers with clones of Megatraps, mostly eastern US growers ranging from Wisconsin to Tennessee. All of these growers have reported that Megatraps has been a vigorous beast. Okay, that's still pretty climate centralized. So, I would like to offer a division up to Calen so I can see what you think in a side by side. I would also like to see what a Cali grower (currently growing B-52) could do with one. Any takers? I would like to get one in Florida as well, but I'm not 100% on how many divisions I have in my pot. I should have enough.
I know it may sound as though I'm beating up on B-52, but I'm really not. I just think that it's an over recommended plant, when there's more reliable just as cool plants available.
boarderlib - deal! I'll totally take a division in the name of science! I also have a counteroffer - let me send you one of my B-52s as well. Now what would it matter you all ask? Well, plants that are propagated in vitro can degrade genetically over many meristem generations (takes years), especially in terms of size and vigor produced when planted out. Sarracenia Daina's Delight is a sad example. Years ago I got DD from UC Davis and it was just a beast. Large, thick rhizomes, fall pitchers consistently in the 26-30" range, and vigorous - constantly threatening to split it's pot. The kind of plant that totally makes a cultivar. Well, foolish me decided that I didn't have room for such a "common" plant in my cramped grow space back in CA, so I gave it away. As soon as I moved to OR and had more space I wanted to get it back into the collection. Well guess what? I've been through 3 different DDs from 3 different sources and they are all crap now! Small, slow growing, nothing plants that hardly pitcher even in fall. Could it be environmental? I'm skeptical since the climate here is far less different than the difference in plant performance, and tons of fall-dominant stuff does really well for me. There may still be some good, original DD out there somewhere, but from what I can tell the TC labs have let this thing get pretty degraded. There are also "good" and "bad" Judith Hindles out there. Which brings me back to the B-52 - I'd like to rule out TC degradation in this case. If one of my honker bulbs with traps pushing 2" immediately sulks next year (mine never do after transplant - they like it in fact) then we can say with near certainty that Heath is bad at growing flytraps. LOLOL jk - we can say that this clone would appear sensitive to his environmental conditions. If my plant goes on to outshine the other B-52 specimen, then maybe there is something else going on.
bogman it's so interesting what these clones require in different areas. Sorry to repost but the pic below is a 1020 tray of fatty B-52 growing in my driveway where they bake all day - we've been having most of our days in the 90s for the last 6 weeks. They are on a table, so the night air cools the roots back into the 60s by morning, but root zones get into the 90s during the day. And these plants are just as large and a bit more colorful than my 14" bowl that gets PM shade from tall Sarrs. Untitled by Calen Hall, on Flickr
bogman, calen — I can definitely confirm the negative effects of high temps on VFTs. I used to grow them in a shadier spot with morning sun, and they did OK. Now, I grow them in a sunnier spot with afternoon sun. For most/all of July/August, they look pretty bad — small traps that burn easily, and poor color.
Here’s a picture of a big flytrap pot today — after 82 days this year with a high >= 95°, and coming off of 11 consecutive triple-digit days: Pretty ugly, eh? For what it’s worth, these aren’t small plants. They’re seedgrowns that routinely get traps up to like 1.25” in the spring.
While this summer hasn't been 2011 bad (when we had 128 days >= 95° and 90 days >= 100°), it has been pretty hot. So far, the average high this month has been 100.7°.
I’m just used to the fact that my VFTs look like crap, grow slower, and get small traps and bad coloration in July and August. I have only really seen these issues with sustained heat over 95° — 90-95° doesn’t seem to bug them nearly as much in my experience. So, my flytraps start doing well again in the second week or so of September, once 95+° days mostly stop.
Also, keep in mind that my nights don’t usually cool off much — in the summer, they’re usually in the high 70s. Even if they were in a bog garden in the ground here in full sun, they’d get soil temperatures well over 90°.
Last Edit: Aug 25, 2018 12:02:39 GMT -5 by alexintx
There's no doubt extended high temperatures cause poor growth or decline in Dionaea. Mike Rink, of Agristarts and I had a discussion, years ago, about this problem. Being in Florida, he was well aware and had figured out the threshold was somewhere in the 80s. Sure, they can take 90s if the nights cool off (say, below 65), that's a mitigating factor. Flytraps are bulbs, and a cooler night means the calories spent on metabolism decreases as the soil cools. This represents a net gain of calories in a 24 hour period, what the foliage produces in carbs vs, what the entire plant expends at night to metabolize.
The bulb, not having photosynthetic capability in the underground portions, is always a net loss of calories; it always takes photosynthetic output. Warm foliage and cooler bulbs is optimal. The thermal mass of media/soil and shade from foliage slows the warming of the media as the day gets warmer, if one has cool nights. Our B-52s are often ground-hugging, with large, deep red traps. When the summer heat sets in, and days are routinely in the 90s, nights in the 70s, we have to give them more shade or they start to look like alexintx's. Once again, when things cool down in later August, they can get blasted with sun. This is true for all our Dionaea.
Now, Calen's observations, about TC plants often being less vigorous, has been reported by many people. The endosymbionts in Sarracenia are often important for optimal growth, and there's a likelihood removal of Dionaea's microbes, during the tissue-culture process (sanitizing), can cause poor growth issues down the road, as unwelcome microbes are not met with mutualistic endosymbiont resistance (good guys vs. bad guys). Mutation of meristems can occur over time, but the removal of beneficial endosymbionts happens rather quickly. Here's a fun read on a lab study. So, divisions can often be healthier (or weaker, if infected), due to "hitchhikers".
When we TC'd some Sarracenia, instead of using methods of removing endosymbionts found in healthy meristems, our hired lab used a product, PPM, which suppresses microbes, does not kill them. It allows the TC plant to coexist with it's associated microbes, but keeps the microbes from going crazy and taking over the culture media. Once put back into the real world, with peat/sand mix and the environment teeming with microbes, the TC'd plants performed beautifully. Their growth was not apparently different from the "mother" plants which came from outdoor beds.
Now, this introduces an important point: Those of us with plants rescued from now extirpated sites are not just preserving a bit of gene pool from those plant populations. We are probably preserving the naturally-occurring endosymbionts which have been part of these plant populations. We almost never have rot issues, with tens of thousands of plants. Long, 50 foot "bogs" insure mingling and access to microbes when seedlings are added. My guess is the spores for these beneficials are everywhere. In fact, some seed-grown Sarracenia, when put into TC after years growing outdoors, showed the same endosymbionts as plants from the wild.
Calen, your gorgeous B-52s are probably full of hiding microbes!
I should apologize Calen, I got a little off topic. I thought (Haha, I know that's what I get for thinking) I seen (mistake number two) a carry over topic, but you asked a different question. The excitement of getting to discuss a subject I'm fairly knowledgeable in with you guys got the best of me. Though I am most down to figure that one out! I need an addy, brother. You should have my Rittman one already
Though after rereading bogman post I'm already thinking it's more than likely the TC degradation. If I'm correct about Bogman's and my climate, they are similar so mine should be performing good for me. Maybe I did get a bad egg, or maybe as Calen suggested I just need to go back to the drawing board with my fly trap growing. Lol. We shall see😊
Which is my favorite? My favorite of the giants would be Maroon Monster. It's not the best performer, but it is just a big mouthed beauty. Mine continually pushes 1 1/2" traps and even in my grueling conditions continues to look good. Even after being in a dark garage, or dark fridge for months it still looks like a winner.
bogman — that speculation about beneficial endosymbionts is interesting. I wonder how much of a role it plays — I’ve tended to notice that TC flytraps don’t do quite as well for me as seedgrowns.
I’ve got an interesting dilemma with my flytraps — do I leave them in the hot sun where they’re set back, or do I move them to the cool shade where I know they’ll suffer due to low lighting? I could move them to somewhere slightly shadier, but that gets just as hot. I really oughta invest in some shade cloth...
For what it’s worth, to not get this thread too off track, I’m also a big fan of Maroon Monster — when I had some cultivars, that one always did really well. Certainly better than B52 did. It’s the best cultivar I’ve grown before.
My all-time favorite flytrap, though, is actually one of those seedgrowns — it has neat, fractal like marginal teeth and routinely produces 1.25” traps when it’s cool. It also continues to make big traps further into the summer than most other flytraps. It also comes out of dormancy a by earlier than my other flytraps, so it gets a longer growing season. I’m actually gonna try putting it into TC soon — because it’s a super hardy, vigorous flytrap. I’m really curious about trying TC clones next to non-TC clones now...
Last Edit: Aug 26, 2018 13:02:21 GMT -5 by alexintx
My B52's grow consistently large and sometimes quite colorful. Year after year in my outdoor garden in full sun all day Long.
My Ginormous and DCXL flytraps are kind of inconsistent. I purchased a tiny Ginormous from California Carnivores several years ago and it grew into a monster after about 1 year. Biggest traps I've ever seen. But since then only moderately sized traps every year.
I have only one G16 right now. Had it for about a year. Consistently large traps and by far the most beautiful VFT in my collection.
For completeness sake and to prove that my flytraps were miserable from heat and not because I can’t grow them, in this photo, that sad looking pot I posted is the top pot. This photo was taken today. While this summer has been cooler than last year, the biggest difference has been the fact that I’m now growing my flytraps under 30% shade cloth during the summer. Every trap in this photo is around 1": some are a tad bigger, others a tad smaller.
Just goes to show the negative effects of hot temperatures without any cooldown on flytraps! I’ve never had traps over 1" this far into the summer until growing under light shade.
You can see the short-toothed seedgrown that may be one of my all-time favorite flytraps in the upper right. Nearly every trap on that plant is over 1" right now and it’s incredibly vigorous.
Last Edit: Jul 28, 2019 22:15:22 GMT -5 by alexintx
sanguinearocks101: What are good plants to make hybrids with S. luecophylla with? Im looking for dark colors.
Sept 10, 2020 18:46:52 GMT -5
adaetz100: Sarracenia purpurea tends to add a lot of red/purple to its offspring, but there are some lovely dark red flava x leucophylla crosses too. Look up 'Royal Ruby' if you're not familiar with it already--it's a natural flava x leuco hybrid
Sept 22, 2020 20:15:04 GMT -5
sarrseens: How about $50
Oct 3, 2020 10:35:54 GMT -5