I didn't believe my eyes when I saw this...no photo-shopping, no looking left and right, and then getting out the black magic marker and coloring it in while nobody is looking...this is exactly how the genetics of this plant played out with this clone:it's got BLACK LIPS! Some of you may wonder, what took you so long to notice this plant Mike? Well, let's just say there's too much to look at in the collection, and you could spend hours observing everything and only see a fraction of what's there. Honestly, it if weren't for Jeff pondering about red jonesii's in this previous thread: sarracenia.proboards.com/thread/2165/jonesii-red-greenville-sc , I probably wouldn't have noticed for a long time.
Now that we have a black lipped flava ornata and a black lipped jonesii, the potential for hybrids in the future is perhaps beyond our imaginations. White top, solid red body, and black lips? How about the whole thing is deeply veined? What about a black top and white body? I dunno, maybe it's possible! Well, that might be overkill, but the sky is the limit.
Enough day dreaming, here's the pics of S. jonesii 'Black Lips' Greenville Co, SC, taken 7/7/15:
Last Edit: Jul 8, 2015 11:06:48 GMT -5 by meizzwang
That's something quite special. One thing I like about your breeding efforts, Mike, is that your concentration continues to be on pure species and varieties. These unique traits--like black veins/lips, extreme venation, etc.--just can't happen if you have a focus on hybridization.
Kevin "the Plant Man" kevintheplantman.wordpress.com
Morpheus: The very laws that do protect our endangered species from extinction in the wild also inadvertently place pressures on the wild by making it extremely difficult to obtain legally grown plants. Fortunately, we have the ICPS who cares about these issues, and I'm doing my best to assist them with distributing endangered species. We can produce hundreds of quality plants from 2 diverse clones-no reason everyone shouldn't have a shot at them.
killerplantz: hopefully, I can get a lot of these propagated in the near future, but because there's likely only one or 2 divisions right now, it'll probably be a bit pricey at first.
theplantman: it's very fulfilling to know there are others who appreciate and understand this sort of stuff, thanks for your warm comments.
jdallas: I don't know yet, literally just found out about this a few days ago. It seems only 1 or 2 individuals from the entire batch have black lips, but there's other community pots of this batch that haven't been inspected. It's likely that the pitcher has to age a bit before the lips turn black. I think I might have also found a black lipped rubra ancestral, but that's another story!
meizzwang I know! I'm truly grateful of what you're doing to help spread these wonderful species around. If can ever get ahold of some of these species I will definitely do what I can to help! Also, like theplantman, I love how you more focus on species than hybrids. I'm a huge fan of pure species sarrs and the beauty that they posses in their genetics. Sure hybrids like 'Adrain Slack' and "Saurus" are top of the line and beautiful in their own regards, but nothing beats the look of a pure species sarr showing off in full glory. The diversity in one species is just incredible! Keep doing what you're doing man!
"Life's a garden, dig it"
Follow me on Instagram @sarr_morpheus74
Post by wrightorchid on Jul 10, 2015 9:07:01 GMT -5
Can't some of these be tissue cultured, and maybe help with the CITES situation, since they would not be wild collected? I know this is an issue with some orchids, and US Fish and Wildlife does not make a distinction between collected and artificially propagated plants. Since these are US plants, it might be less of an issue, not sure. I think too it depends on the species. We have had issues with hybrids, if one of the parents was not legally imported to the US, or only pollen was used. The US interpretation is very narrow. Other countries are different. CITES does absolutely nothing to protect plants in their native country. You can legally collect or destroy them, but you just can't export/import them.
wrightorchid: I think a lot of these plants aren't cloned or tissue cultured because they aren't commercially viable. It takes a lot of resources to get a flowhood, laboratory, experienced technician, and grow room set up to tissue culture, and no company is going to mess with endangered species because of the trade restrictions . Only people who care work with these plants, but without financial incentives, it's hard to motivate even enthusiasts here on the forum to spend a huge amount of their time going through the all the paperwork and necessary steps to legally distribute them. The ICPS has been our best bet to distributing these plants, since a few members are retired and dedicated to making a difference in this world.
I can't tell you how difficult it is to have a full time job, work a side job, and take care of a newborn, and then tackle an endangered species distribution project. Outside of the project, I'm probably already chewing more than I can swallow.
Post by wrightorchid on Jul 13, 2015 8:06:24 GMT -5
There are a couple companies in Florida that are doing TC for some pitchers for commercial sale. Nothing special. Not trying to flood the market, but it seems like there might be some that would be good, and reduce pressure on the wild plants. I was not implying that you try to do this this personally. You already have your hands full, and I am amazed at the quantity and quality of the plants you grow, and make available for sale. My experience is in orchids, and as such, it appears some things are easier. I do think that seed grown, would maintain the genetic diversity, but some just want something pretty, and don't care about breeding. Once again, Cites and federal law get in the way of helping endangered species. I certainly don't see the state of federal agencies propagating the best of these from the various area in the panhandle, any time soon. I may have to talk to some folks about this.
wrightorchid: As for CITES, I've always wondered, what would be the specific terms of a better alternative? Wish I had some answers. Keep in mind, many populations of venus fly traps in the wild, for example, aren't poached by collectors, and as you alluded to, many collectors want only the best of the best in the field. They don't want 1000's of the same thing. In contrast, many of the most notorious poachers are locals or individuals trying to survive and make quick cash. They'll dig up everything in sight and sell them by the 1000's to a pharmaceutical company or other large scale organization. If you restrict trade to only within the state and make it a felony to dig up plants in public preserves, that likely discourages a good 90% of the would-be poachers.
On the other hand, the rest of the world has to suffer from the bad behavior of a few. We have legitimately propagated material in cultivation, more than we could ever want in a lifetime (and from a few plants, we could theoretically more than quadruple the existing wild populations in some cases). However, if I don't fill out the paperwork right and don't consult an attorney before importing or exporting an endangered species out of state since the laws aren't crystal clear, this is an example of what happens: www.scribd.com/doc/206291138/U-S-v-Dean-Cook#scribd
The laws don't put into consideration if the plant was legitimately and sustainably propagated; if you don't have a legal expert to advise you on how to follow the law, it's hard to legally sell out of state. The laws are complicated on purpose to discourage the trade of endangered species:if you make commerce difficult, you stop the incentive to dig plants out of the wild. On the other hand, if someone is willing to go through all the headache to sell endangered plants, then they're very much likely legit. This cuts out any of the small guys that want to distribute plants out of state. For this reason, I'm very thankful for the ICPS since they have the people and resources to assist us "small potatoes" in distributing endangered species (without a profit). We can legally circumvent the hurdles in the law while still hold strong to the spirit or intention of them.
Here's the catch about our current laws and restrictions: a few endangered Sarracenia populations in the wild have either gone extinct recently or are in decline, even at sites that are carefully monitored and maintained! There's only so much you can do when the adjacent farm or home next to your preserve ruins the water table, or has fertilizers/toxins seep into your protected site. Our laws are very restrictive, but to a fault, as they don't account for all the other realities and pressures on these plants. A few unique populations/individuals of Sarracenia exist today only because some genes were salvaged before the sites were destroyed (ie. Defuniak Springs Flavas, Thorsby Alabamensis, Radiotower rubras, minor okee giant type locality, Bulloch Co, GA flavas aka the possible origin of black veined flavas). There will likely be more populations added to the list in the near future, although I'm not implying that everyone should run to their nearest bog and start tearing things out....let the scientists and experienced people figure out a sustainable method...it takes a lot more than just growing out plants and placing them back into the wild.
Post by wrightorchid on Jul 13, 2015 15:16:04 GMT -5
I agree, that there are so many that are lost or in decline, even with protection. At some point, only plants in collections, or arboretums are the only source of a species, or color form. The same has happened with many orchids. Not all of the plants can be monitored and rescued. One of the things I find very interesting is the genetics of the various populations, and the impact of isolation, even when some of the bogs are pretty close. The diversity is really great. I do think it is great that you and others are trying very hard to maintain these unique populations. I haven't ordered from you yet, but will, once I have a better place to put them, and can protect them from the deer.
sanguinearocks101: What are good plants to make hybrids with S. luecophylla with? Im looking for dark colors.
Sept 10, 2020 18:46:52 GMT -5
adaetz100: Sarracenia purpurea tends to add a lot of red/purple to its offspring, but there are some lovely dark red flava x leucophylla crosses too. Look up 'Royal Ruby' if you're not familiar with it already--it's a natural flava x leuco hybrid
Sept 22, 2020 20:15:04 GMT -5
sarrseens: How about $50
Oct 3, 2020 10:35:54 GMT -5